The Virtual CMO Podcast:
This week, host Eric Dickmann interviews Hatti Suvari. Hatti is a non-lawyer who is registered and regulated by the Solicitors Regulation Authority in the UK.
Hatti helps her audience to get access to clear & free information on legal matters. She created the “Get Legally Speaking” podcast to provide explanations so people can make an informed decision and truly understand the law.
The podcast is listened to in over 80 countries and 660 cities and is in the top 2% of podcasts in the UK with the USA being the second biggest audience.
Transcript: Season 2, Episode 11
**Please note, this transcript was generated by an artificial intelligence engine. It is intended only as a rough transcript and there may be some grammatical, spelling or transcription errors.
Eric Dickmann: [00:00:00] Welcome to season two of The Virtual CMO podcast. I'm your host, Eric Dickmann, founder of The Five Echelon Group.
Our goal is to share strategies, tools, and tactics with fellow marketing professionals that you can use to impact the trajectory of your company's marketing programs. We have candid conversations about what works, and what doesn't, with marketing tactics, customer experience, design, and automation tools. Our goal is to provide value each week with a roster of thoughtful and informative guests engaged in a lively conversation.
So with that, let's introduce this week's guest and dive into another conversation with The Virtual CMO.
This week, I'm excited to welcome Hatti Süvari to the show. Hatti is a non-lawyer who is registered and regulated in the UK.
She is on a mission to help the public get access to clear free information on legal matters. She provides the opportunity to speak to a legal professional for advice without the hefty price tag.
Hatti has set-up the Get Legally Speaking podcast and is passionate about helping people get the right information? The podcast is listened to it over 80 countries and 660 cities and is in the top 2% of podcasts in the UK and the United States is her second biggest audience. I think you're going to find this podcast interesting. Hatti. Welcome to the virtual CMO podcast. I'm so glad you could join us today.
Hatti Suvari: [00:01:38] Thank you, Eric. Thank you so much for having me.
Eric Dickmann: [00:01:40] So it's exciting. We're going to get a chance to talk about the law today, which is not a topic. We cover a lot here on the podcast, but I think it's so applicable to business owners. And so I'm really excited to dig into that a little bit today.
But first I've got to ask, I know you're over in the UK and you guys have this odd habit of wearing white wigs in court. Tell me a little bit about the history and why do you still do that?
Hatti Suvari: [00:02:05] Okay. So white wigs are actually for criminal courts only and it's a tradition that goes back to me a hundred years for me to know exactly when it starts. You don't have to be honest, but it's only. In criminal courts and Nazis civil courts and the reason behind it. And we actually spoke about this on a podcast or sales is because when you're representing some, one of the pieces, when you're representing somebody.
And just say that you're representing the state and you have the criminal long, the other side. You could come out of court and if they see you or recognize you, and if they're free walking and they think; it's you are the person that tried to have me convicted or whatever off. Fighting against me, but with the wig is supposed to be, you're supposed to look completely different. So when you come out of court and you rip off the wig. You're a different human being and nobody's supposed to recognize you.
Eric Dickmann: [00:02:54] That's very interesting. I think one of the reasons that as Americans, we tend to love coming over to London. It's all the pomp and the circumstance and the traditions of a lot of those old school things. And that is definitely one that's still exists in the criminal justice system.
Hatti Suvari: [00:03:10] Indeed. There's certainly lots of old school things here in London, in England.
Eric Dickmann: [00:03:15] So I've gotta ask, we are in this world right now where people just love to sue people and as a business owner, It's something that you really have to be on the lookout for. How did we get to this point? Do you think where everybody wants to sue everybody about everything?
Hatti Suvari: [00:03:34] Litigious, being litigious. I have to say if you don't mind me saying, and before I do say, I will say I'm a big fan of America and Americans, but this is a sort of American attitude in a little way it. in some way, because over here, the British is still quite conservative. And for example, you can't Sue for your feelings, for the pain and the strain and the upset here in the UK. And you will, I often do say in my job, I wish we were as a man in America because in America you can.
And the fact that your feelings have been hurt. So you've been mentally scarred by an event. And I think one of the most memorable events, America is when a guy sued McDonald's for burning his lips at drinking a hot cup of coffee and he got a substantial sum of money because he said, I am now scarred for life.
About over that incident and I can't drink cups of coffee. And here you just wouldn't get that. So I think that America's really opened the way. And led the way in us being able to, think of points to Sue other people over, and the elements of that. And the UK still catching up with that, but yeah.
Eric Dickmann: [00:04:50] I think we're going to enter a period here of a lot of litigation as businesses have closed because of the COVID pandemic. there's a big debate here in the States right now with some of these government support packages about limiting the liability of businesses, because somebody could sue, especially, wealthy, a strong business to say, I picked up COVID while Attending your store or, your theme park or whatever it may be. So this is really been crazy. And I think a lot of businesses didn't expect. Not to be covered for some of these losses. There was no pandemic coverage in their policies. How do you think this is going to change businesses going forward?
Hatti Suvari: [00:05:33] I think there's a few things there really Eric and one of the things is that. I think the lawyers are going to be busier than ever. Let's put it that way. I think that's a given, right? Because most people are going to have an angle at some form of litigation, whether you're the business owner or whether you're the actual consumer.
In terms of how is the landscape likely to change as a result of COVID? God, we often mentioned, the new normal. Or when we get back to normal, we say, when we get back to normal on this is our new normal. I don't think we're going to know a new normal for a very long time.
And one of the points that you raised, which I have to say very early on into lockdown, I came to realize that business insurance policies, the majority of business insurance policies were not covering pandemic. As a result of pandemic losses and pandemics, I just couldn't believe it. I just thought this is shocking.
how can an insurance policy saying we're here to make sure that you're going to be okay? Should there be any reasonable problem? How can they not cover a business? That's been ordered by the government? To close. So they haven't chosen to close their doors. Although most people probably unlikely would have to safeguard themselves against the coronavirus and to safeguard their customers.
But the government's ordered it. So I just think it's a really shoddy way for insurance to slither out of this whole thing. Some insurances are paying some insurances are paying out very few, but some are. And I would say. Two businesses really, insurance policies are going to be up for renewal.
And when that time comes really scrutinize your policy and maybe even try to find a policy that will cover a pandemic because there's lots of talk about a second wave. And all of this might not go away after a vaccine because our bodies might become immune to this vaccine. And then you make all that happen again.
So I would say if there is an insurance policy available that would cover a pandemic. And I do think the landscape of insurance policies are going to change as a result of this as well. Because of the huge amounts of insurance companies have come under scrutiny and already legal action as to why they're not covering businesses for their loss of earnings. and their damages. like you say, lots of there's a huge amount of businesses that will be closing their doors for business forever.
As a result of the pandemic.
Eric Dickmann: [00:08:04] This is such an interesting conversation to me. And I'd love to dive a little bit deeper in it because it just seems like one thing is piling on top of another. So especially here in the States, but I know around the world as well, there has been some civil unrest. Here in the States. We've had the, George Floyd incident, the black lives matter, but we've seen, recently in France there had been the labor strikes. But civil unrest is something that is often covered by insurance policies. Correct. If there is a demonstration in the street and somebody breaks your windows or steal something from your store, that's different, that's usually covered. Correct?
Hatti Suvari: [00:08:41] Yes usually That sort of thing is covered. if you had an accidental fire in a location, in an office building. In a shop in a retail shop, you're covered, you're coded for the losses. And what they do is they take, normally they will take your business accounts. And they'll say, what did you turn over in the last year? What was your average profit monthly profits in the last year? And that's what we'll pay out.
Plus the recovery cost of putting everything back to normal for you to recover. So that it's easy. That the crucial thing here is that. Really, I feel like he should have just gotten away with it. Because the government orders a lockdown, right? So it's completely out of the control of the actual business owner, regardless of the reason. And the pandemic is the reason. But regardless of that, you're being asked to lock down. Actually, if you think about it in some pauses are very interesting because it says in some policies, it gives a distance to where the pandemic has to be to your business.
So I've heard insurance policies that say if there is a pandemic and a disease, and those words are used in some policies that is within a hundred meters of your. Place of business, the front doors of your offices or your shop, then we will not be able to cover you. actually, Where is the pandemic and the disease you can't categorically say it's a hundred feet the way you're sitting now, Eric.
Eric Dickmann: [00:10:06] correct yeah.
Hatti Suvari: [00:10:07] So it's another, it's the legal system in my view at its best. I take the words and they mince them up and they interpret them in a way which is in favor of insurers and let's face it. Most insurers. Most of their business is actually, how do we not pay out? How do we protect ourselves against that? They spend more money, more time, more legal expertise.
On getting their policies to a point where they're tight and they're not exposed to claims than they do actually to pay out claims.
Eric Dickmann: [00:10:44] It's been an issue that we've dealt with a lot. So I live in Florida. We have storms. There was just one that, across the States today as we're recording this. So it, it moved through the golf or the Atlantic and up the coast. And It ended up hitting New York. And that area with high winds, but here again, we get into all these technicalities of storms, right? If a storm comes through and it blows off my roof and my house gets flooded with rain.
That's covered. If the storm comes through and overwhelms the dam and the water comes spilling out over the dam and my house gets flooded. It's the same storm, but that's a flood. And one is, wind damage. So it's covered under a different policy. So you need to have flood insurance for this kind of scenario. You need to have hurricane insurance for this kind of scenario, but if it's not a named storm, then it's a different kind of.
It, there are a lot of permutations to the it's hard for businesses to know, and I can imagine it gets awfully expensive too. If you have to stack all of these writers on these policies to cover any scenario. So what does the business do?
Hatti Suvari: [00:11:53] this is the thing, because the one thing that may happen is that when it comes to renewal time, If the pressure is on the insurers to include pandemics and a loss of business, because of it. As a result of a pandemic, the policies then might be a lot more expensive to take out and they may be, it's a typical thing. And we usually find that with health insurance here, Oh, here's the basic package you think, wow, that's expensive. But if you want this cancer care cover, and if you want a hospitalization cover and then it goes up and up, and I'm sure it's the same.
In the U S with private health care. When you add all the bits on, by the time you come out, the other side, you think, wow, that's really expensive, but people are going to be seriously considering I think. Pandemic cover if it's going to be offered. And I think, there's no right or wrong here.
We can't sit here and judge, whether there will be a second wave where the, whether there will be sufficient immunization available to the. World at large so that we don't fall into the same category. I would just say, do your best to find out what policies you can find that will cover you for a pandemic, because if another pandemic does happen and your government says, you must close down, you must get your shop.
Then that's the cover you're looking for. Cause I don't think business are going to want to close their doors that easily. In fact, what I've seen a business owners desperate to get back to business, desperate, to open their front doors for business, because. The losses are just, they're just astronomical and phenomenal and government assistance. As you mentioned earlier, it's going to be measured if it's going to be around a tall, if this happens all again.
Eric Dickmann: [00:13:34] In the States here, we don't have a lot of employees that work under a contract. So if you're maybe part of a union or something like that, then there are specific contract terms that you work on. Potentially some higher level executives might be under some type of an employment contract, but your general, hourly worker at a restaurant is not under any kind of employment. A lot of States are at work at All States. they can be fired really for any reason. But now we're also in a situation where the government has been supplying some businesses with payroll protection to keep people on the payroll during this. And I can see cases where employees, Sue employers for being, let go for being furloughed, because they don't feel that their termination was proper. That maybe somehow the business benefited from.
From them in a way that was unlawful. Do you see this being a big part of litigation in the coming months as employees have to deal with furloughs, terminations, etc.
Hatti Suvari: [00:14:40] let me tell you something, Eric, when I was doing some research for our podcast today, and I saw the figures of in excess of 40 million job losses in the U S up until June, 2020, my eyes popped out of my head and pop back in. Because I just thought.
Goodness gracious. That is a significant and rising. And at that time, and these figures are from June and this was reported in the guardian and it's on the Guardian's website. guardian. com in June. They were saying that the unemployment rate was rising by rate of 2.1 million per week in the USA alone. Now, we sit there and we real, those figs of our tongues, but that's a serious number. And. In the beginning of this podcast. So I said that, I think that the lawyers and the legal system is going to be incredibly busy. One of the busiest areas. I think he's going to be employment law. Because the way that furlough has been handled by businesses is I don't think a lot of it has not been born out of, then just being nasty or horrible or something like that.
And actually some businesses taking legal advice and still the wrong steps are being taken. It's out of desperation. If you couldn't, if you had a choice and you had say, 50 employees. And you said if that 25 don't go today, if the payroll does not stop today for the 25, the other 25 won't survive it.
It's out of sheer desperation and panic because let's face it. Our world has never been in a situation. Not in my lifetime. I've been in a situation like this before. I don't think we've ever seen like this before in the modern working world, but we have. it's incredibly sad, but I do think that both employers and employees and staff against we scrambling around to try and see what legal assistance they can get. What I would say to the employers and the businesses is get legal advice early. If you still haven't felt led your stock, if you still haven't made redundancies, if you still haven't laid people off, get the advice early because that can really prevent expensive and timely Litigious.
And as employees, now we have had. a raft of employees here, which have been later from companies that have just gone under, straight into liquidation and some big names, some big corporate brands we're speaking about. So what the small guy, goodness, hat's off to the small guy that does survive this.
And they've come knocking on our door, can you help legally, can you help? What if the company has gone into liquidation? If it's folded, you're going after something, that's got no money to pay you. Even if a court fines. You were laid off unfairly, it was unfair dismissal, or it was the employer didn't go through the current consultation process or they had you working while you were in furlough and you came out of furlough and then you were let go.
If they don't exist anymore, who are you litigating for? Who's going to pay. The sums that you're often compensation. big areas of consideration.
Eric Dickmann: [00:17:45] Yeah. And I think what we're seeing here, and I think a potential problem for at least some of the larger companies. Is if they have received some form of government assistance in order to support that payroll and then ended up letting people go anyway, people are going to say, you took the money and then you're still letting people go. That was wrong. That wasn't part of the agreement.
And I'm sure that it's going to be a lot to keep the lawyers very busy.
Hatti Suvari: [00:18:08] Indeed. I think we have to sympathize with businesses here because let's face it before COVID-19. Nobody could have envisaged what's happening and everybody was in business.
Doing what they were doing. I have for a very long time, as in my adult life have said that majority of businesses and people live paycheck to paycheck.
If you didn't have a paycheck coming through the door next month, how many months could you survive as a business even. Or as an individual in keeping everything going. I think one of the things that people have to give consideration to businesses that are having to let people go, Oh, having to close the doors is that this is not what they would have wanted.
This is not how they didn't get up one day and say, okay. I think I'll just fold. Oh, I'll just get rid of half of my stuff. it's not what they wanted and I am what it's down. It comes down to really, for businesses it's survival. What do we need to do to survive? If we can survive.
Eric Dickmann: [00:19:03] We'll be right back after this short message.
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If I'm a business owner, I'm very much in that survival mode, I'm trying to figure out what can I do to hold on. And I've got contracts with vendors. Maybe I'm leasing some equipment, or I subscribe to some software services or I have a lease for my, office space or my restaurant or whatnot.
How much leverage do businesses have to renegotiate those contracts?
Hatti Suvari: [00:20:18] that's a really interesting question, Eric, because I think a lot of this is going to come down to the government guidelines because the government's Herceptin right. To say, okay, During this time, these are some temporary laws that we're putting into place to protect people with mortgages on their properties. With mortgage holidays, people, employers, employees, etcetera.
By giving grants and help and assistance, etcetera. So I would say that if you have to renegotiate your rental or lease agreement for your premises, and that's probably one of the biggest issues that people are going to be facing, I have to tell you, I have spoken to a numerous amount of businesses who have said, luckily our lease came to an end. We're not going back in.
Goodness knows what the city London's going to look like in terms of office space and things, because lots of people aren't even going back, but I would say that very early on. If you need to renegotiate, because obviously you can't honor the payments or maybe you don't need the flow stop that you've committed to taking, or you're just not using the equipment. As you said, you've got equipment.
But it's been given to you cause you're not in the premises on the premises. First of all, go back to the supplier, go back to the landlord, go back to the source in which we're in contract with and try and negotiate that at that point. Between you, and then before you get lawyers involved or anything like that, because you may find, but they also, a landlord is still a business owner, at least, providing your least providing your rents, the equipment everybody you're speaking to is also in business. And they obviously, if they can try and salvage any of their business, they're more than likely we'll do everything they can. So go back to source and try yourself to try and renegotiate your position.
If you find that someone's going to, and this could be your landlord or, the company that you've leased from a go to just throw your contract at UNC was sorry. You're bound. There's some very key points to consider. And I think one of them is. And I'm not talking about leases now. I think I'm referring more to equipment leasing and things like that.
If you're not able to use the service as a result of not being able to operate, or they're not being, they're not able to provide you with the service as a result of not being able to operate, then that contract is already in breach.
So that's one thing to think about. So if a service provider can't provide you their service, because they're delivering certain things to that premises, that's what they're contracted to do. Or it could be that, you have to turn up to a certain location to use a certain premises in a certain regular way. If you can't do that and they can't deliver.
But that contract's already been breached. So that's one very important thing, but if you've gone to source and let's take the landlord, has the option here. And you said, look, I really need to renegotiate terms I can't afford to carry on. And when I do get back in or I'm back in now and business, isn't as strong as I wanted to be because let's face it. I don't think anything's going to.
Return back to what we knew it to be. And I think if we say 12 months, That's a pretty much safe bet here in the UK offices already been told no one's going back into the offices until next year. that's six, seven months from now, and then there'll be staggered like two days a week, three days a week, etcetera.
Then that's when you need to, again, you need to take legal advice and you need to take it quickly. Don't sit on it. Don't fester on it, because that advice that you take early on again, can assist you. And keep you a Bay from expensive and timely litigation. I don't think. Actually in my view.
Any judge or courtroom is going to find you unreasonable for trying to get out of a contract due to the pandemic due to the fact that your business can't afford. To contract it that way anymore. Or your business cannot afford to stay in those premises? I don't think there's going to be. some sort of penalization going on because you can't honor your part of that contract by paying for it because.
Judges in courts are going to have to take into consideration. The situation that people are finding themselves in.
Eric Dickmann: [00:24:19] So just to drill into that a little bit more. I know in businesses, start to worry about the position that they're going to be in when they go and talk to a landlord or lease holder, or maybe a supplier. keep putting it off, keep putting it up. let's see how we do and let's see if we can fix this next month. Do you think you're in a much stronger negotiating position? To go in before the problems get bad, or do you think you're in a stronger position? Maybe when you're 90 days, late on a payment and red flags are starting to show up at the vendor or the landlords and saying, something's gone wrong here. Let's see what we can do to salvage this relationship. Or do you think by that point, they're already in panic mode thinking. this is too late.
Hatti Suvari: [00:25:05] Actually Eric, I think, I don't want to sound sort of good old legal, shady about this, but quite frankly, I would say it's always good to speak before the problem has occurred if you can, because right now we are months into this pandemic. lots of people have I felt some pain, and as we've been saying, there's been some huge people. Here's corporates having to close shop closed down business today. I read that Virgin USA is applying to the liquidators and all sorts of things, at Virgin Atlantic. Lots of stuff going on. So I would say try to have the conversations as early as you can, because what you and document that, because you're saying, look, There's going to be a problem. This is what's coming in. It's not gonna, it's not gonna work for us to be in this position, having to contract with you at the price and the cost that we've committed to in six weeks in eight weeks time. What can we do to prevent you losing me as a tenant or, whatever the situation may be. Maybe we juicing the service or reducing your rental, having a re. Deferred rent. reduced and deferred lease payments with payments. Look at all options. And if you're going to shut shut, then again, that landlord or that lease . A person giving you a list is a business as well. So I would say if you can go early, you can go the better it is. Because if it goes wrong and you're not able to renegotiate with them and you do end up in a courtroom by that time. You probably would have been the trouble probably would have been done dusted and over. You would have been, because you're saying you're in trouble. If the landlord or the other side of the contract is not willing to assist you then by the time you get to a courtroom, which probably be months, maybe even a year or two ahead because of the overload of work that the courts have to do with, and the closure of courts and the reopening you probably would have been in and out, you're well through the trouble, so the sorts of thing.
Eric Dickmann: [00:26:57] I think that I think that's really great advice for both sides of the business, because I know for example, when the banks here, we're talking about mortgage forbearance, giving people a few months off from making payments, they went out of their way to say this, isn't going to affect your credit. This isn't going to affect your standing with the bank. Don't be afraid to proactively seek this help if you need it. And I think that gave people a lot of comfort in saying, Oh, I really can't pay this right now. Let me proactively do it rather than getting behind on their payments and then having to basically go into different workflow. So I think both the businesses need to be understanding. That when people are coming to them asking for help, that this is their way of saying, we want to keep this relationship good. We value you. And this relationship let's work together. And I think people have to, be proactive about expressing their problems as well. what area I wanted to talk to you about is, is just general contracting within business. we're past the stage. I think where a handshake deal is sufficient for a lot of things sometimes business goes bad. somebody says they're going to do something. They don't do it. How often do you think it's worth a smaller business taking legal action for an unpaid debt for a contract that's been broken. is it worth going after everything on principle or do you just say for some of these it's too small. It's not even worth the effort.
Hatti Suvari: [00:28:23] Always go after it, Derek
Eric Dickmann: [00:28:25] Always go after.
Hatti Suvari: [00:28:26] commercially. So if it's commercially viable and what I mean by that, in my opinion, Is if you're going after $1,000 and it's going to go into cost you $2,000 in court fees and legal fees and lawyer speeds to do that then commercial there's no commerciality there. However, if your business is such that you've got an in house lawyer. Who works for your business. So therefore you're not actually paying an outsourced and adding to the cost of the business, then anybody that's done wrong on a contract. if it's financially damaging to your business, surely you have to go after it. Because. it's business principle really, but there has to be commerciality attached to it because, There's too many people trying to take too many businesses for a ride. Sometimes that is the case. and I certainly feel that is the case, but then I also see too many businesses trying to take people for a ride. Because they think, look at who we are. We've got money behind us. this is our policy. If you don't like it and you suffered a loss or you're unhappy customer. Then good luck to you. And go and get legal help if you want. And it goes both ways, and I think that contractually, if there's commerciality to your claim, I E you're not going off to somebody who's not got the money to pay you. So it could be that somebody breached a contract because of gone bust her out of business or whatever. So you will be able to get the money you're going after.
if you're successful in your claim and if the value of your claim. Does not outweigh the cost of actually going off to the claim. To commerciality is really key because sometimes you're in for 1 penny you're in for a pound. There is that saying here where you think, Oh my God.
But I spent so much money and the lawyers and I was saying, it's going to cost so much more and we're arguing over $50,000, but I spent 100,000. What I can't give up now. It's a bit like the casino floor, right? When you on that roulette table, they're thinking I've got to win this back somehow.
I talk like a professional gambler, but really I'm not.
Eric Dickmann: [00:30:31] Well, Blood. I think this is just the kind of thing that businesses need to hear because the law is often a little abstract. I think for many businesses, they're worried about making a profit and keeping their people employed and suppliers and vendors and customers. The law sometimes gets lost in all that. And I know one of the ways that you help people is you've actually got a very popular podcast of your own. Talk to me a little bit about the podcast and.
The success it's had globally.
Hatti Suvari: [00:31:02] thank you, Eric. my podcast isn't is a new brand. It's only been around for coming up to eight months and it's called gets legally speaking. If the U S is actually our second biggest audience and the UK, is he? Yeah. I'm really pleased to say that. The UK is our biggest audience. And all we're doing actually is it's me speaking with, and here we have barristers and solicitors. So barristers is also to the higher end of the legal spectrum. So it's me sitting down with barristers and judges on a one to one and just breaking down the law and bringing to the public to the consumer. And it could be business owners. It could be just a general consumers employees, employers legal conversation without the jargon. It's as simple as that. we're very honored and pleased to say that we are now in the top 2% of podcasts in the UK.
That is actually, that is really amazing. I didn't think that as an unknown person to my world, it would be so popular so quickly. and I'm really proud of that. And, we just aim to give free legal conversation to people who in different areas of law and it could be with business. It could be with divorce, it could be motoring law, employment, law, employee law. It could be any area of law. and, yeah, whether UK is number one.
We were going in the right direction for now.
Eric Dickmann: [00:32:19] I think that's great and I wish you continued success with it because as I said, the law is an interesting topic and getting the perspective of a, of judges and lawyers I think is really important just to hear their perspective, because these are the people arguing the cases in ruling on the cases. So I think the format is great and I will definitely have a link to that in the show notes so that people can find it. But I know it's available on Apple podcasts and all the other podcast players of choice.
This has been a really fascinating conversation. And I appreciate your time today.
Hatti Suvari: [00:32:50] Thank you, Eric. Thank you for your time. Really.
Eric Dickmann: [00:32:53] This has been great. Thank you again. that wraps up another episode of The Virtual CMO podcast. As a reminder, if you'd like to learn more about Virtual CMO, strategic marketing consulting services, or anything else discussed here today, please visit us at fiveechelon.com. There's a link in the show notes. If you'd like to send us comments, feedback, guest inquiries, and your five-star reviews on Apple Podcasts are always appreciated.
If you'd like to reach me. I'm @ EDickmann. That's E D I C K M A N N on Twitter. If you'd like to connect on LinkedIn, please let me know. You heard about me through The Virtual CMO podcast. I look forward to talking with you again next week and sharing some new marketing insights on The Virtual CMO.