June 9, 2020

Marketing Strategy, The Virtual CMO Podcast

The Virtual CMO Podcast: 

Season 1, Episode 


Eric Dickmann - Founder/CMO of the Five Echelon Group, Twitter @EDickmann


Craig Sawyer - Host of The Biz Reveal Podcast, crag@bizreveal.com


In this episode of The Virtual CMO podcast, we replay an interview from The Biz Reveal podcast where host Craig Sawyer interviews Eric Dickmann about marketing strategy for entrepreneurs and small businesses.

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Marketing Strategy - An Interview with Craig Sawyer from The Biz Reveal

Transcript: Season 1, Episode 9

Eric: [00:00:00] Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast. I'm your host, Eric Dickmann. You're in the Virtual CMO podcast. We strive to unlock the best marketing practices for small and midsize businesses. We share strategies and tactics from fellow marketing professionals and provide practical advice you can use to impact your company's marketing trajectory. If you're new to the show. Welcome each week, our goal is to improve the value of the content shared here. I hope you'll join us on this journey and become a subscriber to this podcast through your podcast, player of choice. Our primary mission here on The Virtual CMO podcast is to pass along insight and have meaningful conversations on topics of interest to marketing professionals. If you have questions, there's a link in the show notes to provide feedback or guest inquiries. Now let's get on with today's show. 

Welcome everybody to today's episode of The Virtual CMO podcast. I'm delighted this week to provide a replay episode of an interview I did with Craig Sawyer. Craig Sawyer is the host of The Biz Reveal podcast and also the same YouTube channel where he is providing valuable insight to young businesses and entrepreneurs on how they can embark upon their business journey. He's already had some fantastic guests on his show and I was delighted to be part of.one of his early episodes.  I thought it was a great conversation and would be very relevant to share here on this podcast. So here is my interview with Craig Sawyer from The Biz Reveal.  

Craig: [00:02:03] Hey, everybody. Welcome to The Biz Reveal. When starting a business, one of the most overlooked areas is marketing. And I know when we think of marketing, most of us that are actually thinking of advertising, not marketing. There is a difference marketing involves being able to showcase your company in a positive light often by showing customers or clients, why they should trust your company and purchase your goods or services.

Now, advertising is more specific and simply promotes a particular service or product marketing is more about trust, but how do you build that trust? In other words, How do you effectively market your business originally from Wisconsin, but now based in Orlando, Florida, Eric Dickmann is an executive leader with over 30 years of experience in marketing.

Product development and digital transformation. He's worked with large global companies and small startups to develop strategies, to bring innovative products to the market. After years of working in the financial services and information technology industries, including 18 years at Oracle Corporation, Eric ventured into the world of entrepreneurship by founding The Five Echelon Group.

The company focuses on building and executing marketing strategies for small and midsize businesses. As part of the service offering, Eric serves as a virtual CMO for multiple companies. Eric has also the host of a weekly podcast. The virtual CFO, the show is geared towards marketing professionals, looking for tactics and strategies to improve their company's marketing. trajectory thanks for joining us today, Eric. 

Eric: [00:03:28] Hey, it's great to be here, Craig. Thanks very much for having me on your show. 

Craig: [00:03:31] My pleasure, my pleasure. now marketing is one of my favorite aspects of entrepreneurship.

So, I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today and see what we can learn. Can you just start off just letting our listeners know how you got started in marketing and what brought you to where you are 


Eric: [00:03:47] Yeah. So I originally started out in the financial services industry and worked there for many years on product development for a number of banking products.

And then as my career progressed, I started to move more and more on the marketing side of things and trying to work on how we brought those products to market and how we inform people about what the various products and services did. I spent the majority of my career at Oracle. And, you know, you've got a big company there that sells lots of different products and services.

And the challenge for someone in marketing is to say, okay, maybe everybody's familiar with the big brand, but do they actually know the specific things underneath that brand that can meet their particular needs? And so that was my challenge. When I worked at Oracle, specifically in their financial services industry, vertical to try to help people understand what Oracle did.

in that particular vertical to meet their needs. 

Okay. So there's this basically trying to get them to know you, you specifically actually as a person or as a business owner, as well as know the company and who they are and what they do and what they stand for. 

Yeah. That's exactly it. I think, you know, the Genesis or, or, really the focus of marketing is on awareness on building awareness of your brand, your products, your services.

And then driving demand for those products and services. So, you know, the interest in the early phase of what you're trying to do in marketing. And then that eventually hopefully leads to a product sale. 

Craig: [00:05:24] Awesome question for you as I was introducing you. And I used that acronym CMO as the COO, what traits are important to have?

you know, for example, if I'm a business owner and I want to hire somebody to be in charge of my marketing, And what type of person or credentials should I be looking for in a CMIO? 

Eric: [00:05:41] You know, that's really a great question because, CMO is typically something that you think of at a large company, you know, someone that works with a big executive management team, chief financial officer, chief information, officer, everything like that, but really the idea behind a CMO or in my case, a virtual CFO is somebody that's just working with companies to help them develop out a strategy, you know, I love focusing on entrepreneurs on small businesses, midsize businesses, you know, these are really the heart of our economy.

And so often marketing is something that just kind of sits on the side. They know it's something that they need to do. And every once in a while they dabble in it or they hire somebody, maybe it's a, somebody fresh out of school to do some social media or let's buy some Facebook ads, but they don't really have a strategy.

They're just kind of guessing at it. And that's a very expensive and frustrating thing to do because marketing is a longterm play. It takes time to develop an interest in your products and services. And so really the job of a CMO or in my case, a virtual CFO is to help companies build out a more comprehensive strategy so that they can spend their money wisely and get the biggest bang for the buck.

If you will. And I think if I take that one step further, the idea behind a Virtual CMO is a lot of companies don't want to hire an executive that would be a full-time member of their team, their businesses, isn't big enough, or they just don't feel that they want to spend that kind of money.

And so what a virtual CFO or a fractional CMO does is they spend, a part of their week working with that particular business. So it's a, it's a part-time sort of executive for a company. 

Craig: [00:07:31] And you're, you're talking about that marketing strategy. So. Yeah. As the CFO or somebody in your position where you're helping all these different companies out, you know, how do you determine a company's marketing strategy?

There are so many different types of companies out there that offer different services and products. They have different mission statements. So how do you determine the best marketing strategy for each one? 

Eric: [00:07:52] No, that's a great question, because I think this is something that a lot of companies miss as part of the process. And really one of the first things that you want to do is you want to understand who is your target customers. So in marketing buzz, you know, we really call that the customer persona. And when you're developing these out, you really go as far as naming this, this customer persona, this fake ideal customer that you want to go after, what are their attributes?

You know, how old are they, where do they live? What kinds of things do they like to buy? Where do they go out to eat? You really get fairly specific about who is this target customer. And then would that target customer be interested in the kinds of products and services that you're selling? And once you sort of have bad, then you can start to say, okay, now what kind of tactics can we employ as part of our overall marketing strategy to say, okay, this is going to be the kind of thing that this target person is going to be interested in looking at.

So, you know, for example, if. If you have a target customer and you look at them and say, well, this isn't the kind of person that normally spends a bunch of time on Facebook. Why would you spend any money on Facebook advertising? It makes sense. It just, it helps you really focus in on where the areas of the most, effective result are probably going to be found.

And I'm assuming some of that information when you're looking at the demographics of your particular field, or in the particular area, like if you actually had a storefront, for example, You'd want to take the demographics of where you locate that storefront into consideration before your leasing office space of assumed, right?

To, to be able to focus more on the group that you're in. You obviously wouldn't want to be in an area that is not primarily the types of people that you would want to market to. Well, that's exactly right. You know, they've talked a lot of times about, you know, McDonald's, are they, you know, a fast-food company or real estate company, right?

Why on every corner that there's a McDonald's is there a Burger King across the street? And you know, Wendy's and Chick-fil-A why are they all right there? you know, there's a lot of research that goes into figuring out where do they want to put those, businesses because that's where they believe the traffic and their target customers are gonna be.

And it's a critical part of marketing because, so there's something that we talk about in marketing, in product development called product-market fit. And that's this idea that do you have a product that has a specific place in the market? Is there a fit for what you're making? Is there a demand for what you're trying to produce and what happens?

I know your podcast focuses on entrepreneurs and new businesses, and this is a real challenge. I think for a lot of young businesses is that they get really excited about a concept. I'm sure we've all seen this. Let's take a restaurant as an example, you know, you drive by, you see a building under construction or space inside a strip mall.

That's, that's being developed for a restaurant or some kind of business. And you look in and you just scratch your head. It's like, I don't get it. Why is this business going in here? You know, this doesn't make any sense here. And I think a lot of times what happens is that people just get very excited about a concept about their product or their service, but they don't do that research to see is there even any market for it?

And, you know, sometimes we're wrong and they'd ended up being a big hit because they were onto something that we didn't catch onto initially. But I would say nine times out of 10, that's not the case. If you're scratching your head, wondering what is this business going in here for? There's probably a mismatch.

Craig: [00:11:28] So with that research, where does somebody begin to research that? Where do you find that type of information at? 

Eric: [00:11:35] So a great thing is just starting to dig into who are the competitors. it, you know, it's pretty rare for somebody to come up with something that is so unique that there's no competition for it because even a product or service that you could say, there's nothing else like it in the marketplace, you're still competing to get somebody's dollars.

Right. You're somebody, if they're going to spend money on your product or service, they're not going to spend it on somebody else's. So where are you pulling that money away from? and that is one of the easiest ways to start to do it. And you could say that, there are companies out there that are mainly serving the enterprise space, that they have a product that's especially suited for very large companies.

Maybe there's another product that's similar in design, but it's really more suited toward the mid-market. Or there's something that's really, very affordably priced that's for small businesses. So you can start to see what are the competitor's target markets, and then you can further start to refine it from there.

It depends a lot on the type of product that you're selling. Right. We, we all drive a car, but there's a huge range of options. Right? You can go wherever from everything, from, you know, a range Rover or a Mercedes or Lexus all the way down to, you know, a Honda or Chevrolet. there they've all got four wheels, but, but what's the difference there.

They're all targeting a specific, Segment of the marketplace and the competition is the best place to start, I think. 

Craig: [00:12:59] Yeah. You know, and you're kind of piggybacking off of somebody else's research that way. Cause you know, they had to do the same thing and if they're not succeeding well, obviously that's, you know, maybe an area that you don't want to get into or at least in that particular, you know, demographic that they're in.

So it's kind of nice to, you know, learn from other people's mistakes. And again, that's part of what this podcast is about is, you know, there's plenty of mistakes to be made out there. make original ones don't make, don't make the mistakes that other people have made. So learn from them and then, and then move on from it.

So, you know, and I think that we can all agree that business success is always directly relative to the satisfaction of customers. Right. Can you dive into, you know, customer or customer relationship management, you know, what is the customer relationship management? What is it and what does it focus on. 

Eric: [00:13:45] Yeah, I think that's great. I, I'm a big advocate of this customer relationship management. It's not a new concept. It's been around for a long time. In fact, I was with a company for many years called Siebel systems and they were really one of the grandfathers of this whole idea around customer relationship management.

Now that moniker has kind of been taken by salesforce.com. But customer relationship management is really this idea of how are you serving your customers and what do you really know about them? You know, I'm sure we've all had the experience of calling into a call center about a particular problem and.

Them not knowing who you are. maybe you took the time to punch your information into the phone system. an agent finally answers the phone and they say, can I have your account number? What, Oh, why did you punch that in, in the first place that they don't know what it is? And then, you know, you say your problem and they say, well, no, I've got to transfer you to this other department.

I was like, well, why did I pick that option in the menu? And why didn't they know why, you know, why couldn't they solve my problem? And the worst is when they have no record of your previous call, they don't know that you called in before that you talked to somebody who said they were going to resolve a problem and they didn't do it.

This is all around customer relationship management. It's that visibility into a customer's complete relationship with an organization. And so when somebody is calling in, you really know them. You know, it's shocking when you call into a, an organization and they say, you know, is this about, you know, your last call?

you know, I see that we resolve that or there's somebody, or there's something that's still pending, but they know why you're calling right. I think, you know, we're recording this in early June and we live here in the state of Florida. And the news is just full of all of these complaints, about people who are trying to get their unemployment benefits and what a disastrous job, the state has done in communicating and understanding people. And you know what they've done, what they've submitted, you know what they've paid, all these things it's as if they have no idea. Who their customers are and their customers are the, you know, the residents of the state. And it's an example of customer relationship management that has gone horribly wrong because they have no idea about what anybody is doing or what interactions they've had with the organization.

Craig: [00:16:04] And it's all about communication and organizing those notes. And, and, and frankly, I'm a firm believer that there's really no. Can use for that these days. There are so many CRM systems and ways to keep notes on your customers. And even if it's been a year since you've talked to them, and there's no way that all of us can remember every customer we've talked to, especially if it's been a year, but if you have that organized and you keep those notes, you know, in a system where as soon as that number pops up, you got, you know, all their information there.

You certainly can talk to them as if you had just talked to them yesterday, which makes people feel really good. And I. Like you remembered him. It's like a relationship, a friendship. 

Eric: [00:16:44] That's exactly right. You know, my first name is Eric E R I C, and I am amazed at how many people spell my first name wrong.

And this is oftentimes in emails where my name is, you know, part of the email address or, you know, I've got a signature line on there. I mean, literally every week I get messages that are spelled wrong and. You know, maybe that seems like a little thing. People may spell my last name a lot too, but the first name that one's a little harder to understand because, you know, especially if you're a mayor conversation with somebody it's like.

Didn't we just talk, you know, do you know who I am, but it just sort of shows that you don't really know, and it doesn't take that many missteps with an organization before all of a sudden, the trust falls apart and you as a customer, you no longer feel an affinity to this particular organization. I think one of the reasons that Amazon has just been so stellar at what they're doing is they just keep.

Providing people with more and more information, you know, there, there was a day, it seems a long time ago now, but it wasn't when you would order something and have no idea when it would show up. And now, you know, you order something and say, well, Amazon told me it's going to be here Thursday. So it's going to be here Thursday.

And now we've come to expect that. Right. 

Craig: [00:17:59] at a certain time, even on Thursday, it's going to be here. 

Eric: [00:18:04] Yeah. Well, that's right. And now they've gone to the further step of, you know, you get a message and say your delivery's nine stops away, you know, and then you get a text message that says it's at your front door and here's a picture of it.

You know, they've just gone above and beyond to communicate. And so you really feel sort of this personal connection with the brand, because you say, I like this, they seem to know me and they seem to know that I'm interested in knowing where my product is. and you compare that to some other businesses where you order something that you have no idea when it's going to ship when it's gonna arrive.

And it can be a complete surprise. Usually when you're on vacation is when it shows up. 

Craig: [00:18:35] I think that was probably the most perfect example you could have given because I agree. you know, not that I'm certainly not making any money from Amazon. In fact, it's definitely the other way around. but, they have done a phenomenal job, especially for such a large company.

Cause sometimes when companies get so big. that you lose that personal touch and they've done just the opposite and they've actually gotten more and more personal, the bigger they've gotten. And I think that you mentioned that taking a picture. I just received something yesterday afternoon. I'm kind of an Amazon chunky.

but you know, there it is sitting on my front step and I'm actually watching the guy walk back to the van, you know, in the street there. So you're right. I, I, I think that's a perfect example. you mentioned the unemployment thing right now because of the situation that we're in. So going on that.

COVID-19, it's obviously it's changed the way that most of us do business. You know, now, you know, 21st century, I know we're already 20 years into it, but everything has changed in the last few months, with the increase in remote work and, you know, and the people that are working from home, how do you see that affecting the work-life balance for employees as well as what it may mean for companies as a whole in the future?

Eric: [00:19:38] Yeah, I think that's such an interesting topic because. you know, I myself have been a remote worker for many years and. It's taken some time to adjust to it, to figure out, you know, what is the best way to work and how you can accomplish things from home in the way that you could have in an office.

But once you sort of get your routine down and once you understand sort of what the boundaries are and that you have to set a specific time, to do certain tasks, It's incredibly fulfilling to be able to work in an environment where you're not spending hours and hours, in your car, commuting back and forth, dealing with that stress.

I've heard of so many people reporting stories, especially in, you know, big cities where they're like, Oh my gosh, I've gotten so much of my life back because I'm not spending all that time in a car commuting. but it's a challenge. but I think a lot of companies during COVID-19 have seen that. Oh, yeah, we can actually support a remote workforce.

I think one of the challenges that managers have faced is that they're actually the bottleneck to a lot of remote work. It's not the employees themselves. And it's because managers oftentimes feel uncomfortable when they can't see people working because they don't trust that people are doing the work.

And I think that's a terrible way to look at it because. If you don't trust somebody, why'd you hire them? There has to be some level of trust, whether they're in an office or whether they're at home. What I think it really takes is a clear definition of what someone is responsible for. What are the tasks that they are responsible for doing?

When are they responsible for getting those done? And what is the, you know, level of acceptable work that they need to put in to make sure that the quality is there? You know, when they finish a project and if those things are in place, Who really cares if they're working on it at seven in the morning or seven at night, as long as they're using their time to get their jobs done.

I don't think it matters so much. I think that there is too much of a focus in the business world about saying, okay, I'm paying you for eight hours. So I want to see you for eight hours, you know, logged into a system or on chat or sitting at your desk or whatnot. I wish that we would move more towards a productivity model where we say, I'm paying you.

You have a certain job done. Get it done. And then. If that takes you five hours or if that takes you eight or if that takes you 10. so be it, I, I think you'll find that a lot of people who work remotely, what they'll say is they actually end up working more than less. I'm sure they get up and they put a load of laundry in, or they go mow the lawn or they go do something like that.

That's fine. People should be taking breaks during the day and stretching out. It makes them more productive. but a lot of times they're also working at their desk at eight o'clock at night. So I think it's going to change dramatically and I think there's going to be more remote work. And I think there's also going to be fewer.

A full-time employee, because I think companies are realizing they can get by with less. So it's probably going to be great for contract workers, people who are doing some part-time gigs. I think we're going to see this unemployment level go down very slowly because a lot of these people aren't going to be hired back.

Craig: [00:22:42] Unfortunately, I agree. And actually just brought up another great question that just now popped in my head is. If we do, more of the remote work and it does affect what is considered to be a full-time worker, or a salaried worker, because like you mentioned, that's all based on hours per week worked right.

Full time versus part times that 32-hour marker there. and it's all about again, you know, tasks, you know, if you're tasked to do a job, frankly, I, I prefer somebody to get a job done in 20 hours. That's taking somebody else 40 hours. Cause that means they're a lot more productive. I can just get a lot more tasks done with somebody like that.

But in turn, if they're no longer considered a full-time employee because they didn't work that 32 plus hours, how would that affect. Maybe say benefits, things like that, that are based on hours per week worked as opposed to tests that are performed. So that might create a whole nother that'd be another episode us, 

Eric: [00:23:44] right?

Exactly. No, I think that's true. I think these are all questions that are going to have to be figured out because you're right. I mean, there are a lot of people that are paid hourly that, you know, maybe it should be more of a salary job and look, you know, there are some things like if you're working in a call center, We've seen a lot of that gets distributed out so that people can, you know, sit at home and, you know, calls can be routed over the internet, no problems there, but they have to be available.

You know, when that phone rings, they have to be there to do it. So going out and mowing the lawn or something like that, isn't an option for those people. So they are actually being paid to be available for a specific period of time. But I think if your job is to get. You know, bundles of work done over a certain period of time. To me, that is really moving more towards the salary model and you get it done as you, as you need to, 

Craig: [00:24:32] if you had one piece of advice for businesses, regardless of industry, to be able to mold. Into this, I hate saying the term because it's so overused right now, but it's our new normal. And I actually, I think I'm a little thankful for it because I think it is going to make many businesses and just business in general, more efficient.

And I think it opened the eyes to the technology that we've had available to us for many years that just has not been utilized in the manner that it really could have been. but if you had one piece of advice for these businesses, or again, the whole industry of business, what would it be as far as the way things are going towards the direction it's moving towards?

Eric: [00:25:17] Yeah. So I'm gonna swing it back a little bit towards marketing. Cause I am a marketing guy and my advice to businesses, you know, marketing is really. The engine that drives growth. I talk about this with my clients all the time. That marketing is the engine that drives growth. If, if you want leads, if you want, new customer opportunities, you can't just flip a switch and have them magically appear.

If that's the way it worked. You know, you basically put the marketing industry out of business because it just doesn't work that way. It's a long term, investment in driving people to your, your brand, into your products to build that awareness, to build that trust, and to finally make those sales.

And so my advice to businesses is. To keep that investment going. I think one of the biggest mistakes that businesses do is they, they play with marketing like a faucet, right? They, they. Spend a little bit of money, then they turn it off. Then they spend a little bit of money, they turn it off and they're looking for very quick results from those efforts.

And, you know, sometimes you can do things like if you're, a business to consumer, you can say, okay, we're going to do a coupon or a promotion or something like that as a way to sort of drive sort of near term results. But, you know, has that promotion fades away then all of a sudden you're back to where you were and that I'm sure you've seen businesses in your own community, that they.

They get people so addicted to those promotions that people won't even go to those businesses unless they, there's a sale or something going on. Does anybody go to Macy's when they're not running a sale? you know, it's, I think it's, it's very tricky. So businesses have to keep that faucet open, but I think what's changed now because of COVID and this was coming anyway is you have to use data, you have to use the data that's available to you to see what's working, to see how customer, Preferences are changing where the money is being spent and where it's not.

And you constantly have to keep refining what you're doing. You can sort of turn something on and then walk away from it. And then, you know, six months later, expected to be performing as well as it was. Even our websites, that, that we all have today, right? Those things are not static at all. You, you have to make changes to those all the time to keep them fresh, to keep them current, to keep them up to the standards that Google wants so that Google even displays you in their search results.

It's a constant investment. And so if you're a small business and you don't have a big budget, okay, that's fine. But figure out a strategy that can keep that marketing investment, constant experiment, try different things, but keep the investment constant. And then as you start to grow, build that investment over time, 

Craig: [00:27:58] pay attention and adapt.

Eric: [00:28:00] Yes, absolutely. You've got to adapt. You've got to Dan, you've got to use a. analytics and data to really look at, real-world results to see what's working. And what's not, I mean, there's so much data and most of it's free that you can see out there that can really help you in your, in your quest to put together our campaign, a strategy that'll be effective.

Craig: [00:28:20] I agree. And I know I'm kind of touching on what you had just mentioned too, with the COVID, where, you know, a lot of businesses have either slowed down, in a large percentage slowed down or. Perhaps even we're forced to close down. And that is one of those times when that faucet tends to get turned off and that's going on, it's now it's hurting them twice because that's the time when things have slowed down that you really need to get the word out there and you really need to put your image out there and put yourself in front of people.

So don't forget about you just during that little slow time. Keep them coming in. So I think it's a, it's like canceling, you're canceling your health insurance because you lost, you know, you're not working as much in the middle of a medical pandemic. Right. you know, that's the last thing that you want to do.

And I think that the marketing follows suit, I think it's right up there with that. 

Eric: [00:29:11] Well, I remember when, you know, Cole that really started to hit the economy was being shut down. And I remember, you know, watching TB and an ad came on and it was for an Audi car. And, you know, it was these happy skiers that were, you know, they had just finished up a day on the slope and, you know, they took off their ski outfits and they grabbed a bottle of water.

They drove down the snowy slope or the Hill in their car, and they went to the operators, ski at the ski resort and, you know, it was just all great. Well, the ski resorts are closed and, you know, the, you can't even buy a car from a dealership anymore because they're closed. So it just seemed very inappropriate.

It was nice, but it was inappropriate. And then at the same time, Cadillac was running an ad and you know, their ad was, well, we understand these are difficult times, you know, if you need help with your payments, you know, give us a call and we can, we can help defer those payments. You know, we're giving people some free OnStar and, you know, if.

You happen to be interested in a car, you can order it online and have it delivered. And I thought, what a contrast, you know, here is somebody who got an ad out there that showed empathy, that showed a real situational awareness to what was going on. And it. It still was an ad for a Cadillac. You know, they, they were showing Cadillacs, you know, they were showing the cars driving around and, in the beautiful scenery and all that.

But the message was something that was very clear. And I think we've seen a lot of brands pivot that way now. And there's a lot of empathy, even with the protests and whatnot that have been going on over the past week or two, you can see how some brands have very quickly shifted and put out an empathetic message.

And so there are ways to continue advertising. You just have to understand the environment that you're in and you continue to build that trust. And then when it comes time to push your product a little bit harder or push a more specific offer, you know, that'll come, but these companies haven't stopped.

They've just. Adjusted their tactics. And if you're a small business and you're not doing, you know, advertising per se, now is a great time to be focusing on your infrastructure. What does your CRM look like? What does your database look like? I've lived in my current house for about 13 years now. I still receive multiple pieces of mail each week for the former resident.

I mean, these, the email, a list of these companies are using our head lease 13 years old. And by the way, that person is deceased, you know, so they're not even reflective of a live person anymore. And these are a lot of things that companies can be doing. During a time when maybe you want to hold back a little bit more on some of your marketing expenses.

You want to hold the line a little bit. That's fine. But there are still investments that you can make in marketing 

Craig: [00:31:54] and that right back to the, you know, pay attention and adapt. And that Cadillac's story is perfect. I mean, honestly, that is just absolutely perfect. They did, they were paying attention to what.

Their base needed it would understand, and they adapted to it. And, but still at the same time, knowing that they couldn't, you know, open up their locations, they could still order online and they're still keeping their name alive and still keeping it in front of people. It's genius. 

Eric: [00:32:21] It is genius. And it builds that trust.

I mean, think about what the banks have done to, you know, the banks got in a lot of hot water during the financial crisis and all the foreclosures and things. And there was a lot of hostility towards banks. When this whole thing started looking bad how quickly many of the banks said, Hey, do you need to have your mortgage payment deferred your credit card?

They tried to make it very easy. I thought they were very responsive to it. but they were trying to. Build that trust, right? Because they did not want to be the scapegoat for another sort of series of financial disasters. Right. You know, they want it to be seen as part of the solution, not part of the problem.

And, you know, that's, that's marketing 

Craig: [00:33:01] phenomenal. I just looked down. We are at our time here for the day for this, session. It goes by fast. Yeah. It was fun. I love chatting with you. Again, I want to plug you as much as possible for your podcast as well, because this was a great conversation. I'd love to, to do this again with you.

so for everybody listening, Eric, his podcast show is, go ahead, Eric, let everybody know how they can get ahold of you and listen to you. 

Eric: [00:33:24] Yeah. So the podcast is The Virtual CMO and we talk about things like this on the podcast each week. So I hope you'll check us out on iTunes, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts.

And if you'd like to find out more about me, I can be found on Twitter  @EDickman. And the website is fiveechelon.com. 

Craig: [00:33:48] Thanks again for being a part of this, Eric, I really appreciate it. And I loved having this conversation with you. We're definitely going to have to do this again really, really soon.

Eric: [00:33:56] I'd love to do that as well. Thanks so much for having me on the show today. It's been a pleasure. 

Craig: [00:34:00] You bet. 

Eric: [00:34:00] Well, that wraps up another episode of The Virtual CMO podcast. I want to thank Craig Sawyer and The Biz Reveal for hosting that great interview. I really do appreciate it. And look forward to a future conversation. You can reach Craig at Craig@thebizreveal.com And please check out his podcast, The Biz Reveal as well as his YouTube channel.

Join us again next week for another conversation about marketing. As a reminder, if you'd like to learn more about Virtual CMO services or anything else discussed here today, please visit us fiveechelon.com. A complete transcript of today's show is available as well. Please follow the links in the show notes. Thank you for your support and feedback. There's a link in the show notes. If you'd like to send us comments and your reviews on Apple podcasts are always appreciated. If you'd like to reach me. I'm @edickmann on Twitter.

If you'd like to connect on LinkedIn, please let me know. You heard about me through The Virtual CMO podcast. I look forward to talking with you again next week and sharing some new marketing insights.  


The Five Echelon Group - Resources to Restart Your Business

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