The Virtual CMO Podcast:
Season 1, Episode 14
Eric Dickmann - Founder/CMO of the Five Echelon Group, Twitter @EDickmann
In this episode, host Eric Dickmann interviews Tarusha Mittal. Tarusha is the Co-Founder and COO of OroPocket, a new, 100% asset-backed banking platform based on blockchain. She is also the host of a podcast called Living on Blockchain.
We discuss the complexities of launching a new international business, dealing with regulatory hurdles, and attracting new users to a banking platform. As a small company, OroPocket is driving new users to its platform through awareness campaigns, influencer marketing, gamification, and social media in order to keep marketing expenses to a minimum.
This is a fascinating conversation about growth hacking a new business and how to stretch your marketing budget by taking advantage of free tools and online resources to reach your target audience.
Transcript: Season 1, Episode 14
**Please note, this transcript was generated by an artificial intelligence engine. It is intended only as a rough transcript and there may be some grammatical, spelling or transcription errors.
Eric Dickmann: 0:08
Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast. I'm your host, Eric Dickmann. The Virtual CMO is a podcast designed for marketing professionals at small and midsize businesses. Our goal is to share strategies and tactics from fellow marketing professionals that you can use to impact the trajectory of your company's marketing. Our primary mission is to pass along meaningful insight on topics of interest to marketing professionals. If you have questions, there's a link in the show notes to provide feedback or guest inquiries. We'd love to hear from you. And as always, we appreciate those five-star reviews on Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show with that. Let's dive into another conversation with The Virtual CMO.
Today. I am excited to welcome Tarusha Mitta to the show. Tarusha is a serial entrepreneur in the deep tech space. She is currently the chief operations officer and co-founder of OraPocket, which is 100% asset-based banking on blockchain. And we'll explain more about what that means. In a few minutes, she has scaled to ventures in the past a hosting platform, and our crypto exchange. The later saw transactions of over 15 million. dollars in the span of eight months. She's an anthology author and a podcast host as well. And I'm excited to have her on the show today.
Tarusha, welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast. So glad that you're with us here today.
Tarusha Mittal: 1:33
Thank you so much for calling me. It's my absolute pleasure and honor to be here.
Eric Dickmann: 1:37
I would love it. If you could just take a few minutes and give the audience a little bit of history in terms of your background and how you got to where you are today with this exciting new company oral pocket.
Tarusha Mittal: 1:51
Okay. so, you know, I've been a tech entrepreneur for nearly a decade now. I was actually, you know, I came from a background in humanities. So my co-founder is somebody I went to school with and we've known each other since he was seven years old. so when we got. School, he, he wanted to, you know, start a tech company because he's ethical equity and he's really into tech and he wanted me as the cofounder. So we started and we embarked upon this, journey as entrepreneurs, you know, nearly 10 years back. We bootstrapped the data center at first. and you know, we broke even that data center in say six months, I think of operations. those were really hard days of lugging around hardware from one place to another where it was fun. Nevertheless. post that because we reached a point where we couldn't really scale the data center because you need really deep pockets to sort of scale that kind of business. We moved our focus to another venture that is, when we co-founded a crypto exchange, which was one of the first serum exchanges of India, it was called ethics and ethics really saw a lot of remarkable growth. So we had over 15 million USD transactions on the platform and we had around. 850 K to 950 K users in around eight, nine months of operations. And this was primarily through, Organic marketing. And, you know, that is something that I am a, you know, we kind of, we are both very good at, we are both growth hackers, so we believe a lot in a zero budget marketing. but you know, sadly the government, can you screwed us over? because there was a, you know, the banking, support was, removed in India and, for cryptocurrencies. so that is the point where we can of pivoted to oral pocket. So oral pocket is. Oh completely a fully compliant, investment platform where you'd not just invest in digital assets, but you can, you know, use those digital assets subsequently as real money in real-time. So we are basically a hundred percent asset-backed banking on blockchain.
Eric Dickmann: 3:45
So, wow. That's a lot there. Let's deconstruct that a little bit. So for our audience who might not be familiar, talk a little bit about, let's start with cryptocurrency, just to explain a little bit what that is.
Tarusha Mittal: 3:56
Okay. So cryptocurrency is nothing else, but digital currency, except that, you know, it's, it's an, a completely transparent peer to peer, sort of technology, you know, the currency that you have in your bank right now, anybody anywhere in the world, if you're using a, you know, if you're using a bank and if you've put some, cash in your bank, then that in itself is also. In a digital form because you know, the entire traditional monetary system kind of works on a system of debt. So the bank is not really holding all of that money in real-time for you. So if you want to, you know, perhaps withdraw all of it, there would be, you know, they would have put in constraints. so that, you know, you can't really take out all of the money at once. So because there is so much centralization that comes in with banks, and there is a lot of opaqueness that comes in with banks, and we know that, you know, banks tend to fail and feed currencies in general because, you know, they are sort of printed, without having any, asset, which is backing them because the gold standard was abandoned in 1970. So. Earlier feared was backed by an asset, usually gold by central banks, but then this was abandoned and now, you know, feds and the central banks, they print money, on, you know, as per demand and sort of supply. That is why there is inflation. That is why the, you know, kind of value that your feared has currently. It will just go down, over the years. Right. This is something I think everybody would agree with. Like what your five bucks could value. Perhaps when you were a child, it's not the same stuff that you can buy with those five bucks now because of inflation. So that is where. Blockchain comes into the picture. That is where Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies come into the picture. It is about creating a system that is completely transparent. It is a trustless system. It's trans, you know, as I said, it's transparent and you can check a public ledger currency though. Those transactions are happening and these are digital currencies that people are now trying to adopt.
Eric Dickmann: 5:50
And boy are central banks printing money like crazy. Now, aren't they with the COVID crisis. We're recording this in June of 2020, and the COVID crisis has got central banks doing all kinds of monetary stimulus to keep the economies afloat during this crazy time. So when you talk about blockchain, I think people are familiar with, payment networks, you know, wire transfers, or a Swift payment. How does blockchain fit into these existing payment systems? Or is it something completely outside of that?
Tarusha Mittal: 6:22
So it can work in both ways, you know, blockchain. Can you think of blockchain technology as basically a public ledger where you can record, you know, you can make records of anything that has off, any value, any tangible value? It doesn't necessarily have to be money. so that is the technology. And on top of that technology, cryptocurrencies are created. So Bitcoin was the first currency that was created on a blockchain. And, you mentioned that you know, there's, there are traditional ways of saying transferring money and doing cross-border remittances, right. You use a Swift or SEPA in, you know, in Europe. But all of these are ways they, they, first of all, they take, they are very time-consuming. They, you know, you can, it can take days for that money to reach if you're doing a cross border remittance. and then secondly, they charge a horrendous amount of fees, right? Banks are known to be sneaky that way. Banks also. Charge you a lot of money and we're using a third party transfer. You're using some other platform to actually facilitate this transfer. They also charge a lot of money. So we were really aghast when we, you know, we actually realized the kind of fees that we are paying on these cross-border remittances. And that is why, this is another feature that we've built on or a pocket that, you know, you can do instant prod cross-border remittances. on blockchain, essentially because you are doing it on blockchain, these are near-instant transactions and the kind of fees that you pay on them is absolutely negligible as compared to the exorbitant fee, that, you know, banks levy. So with oral pocket, if I'm buying gold or silver, and then that is becoming a digital asset, how does that work? Where is the actual physical asset that backs that up? How does that all work? Right. So with auto pocket, what you can do right now, you can, you know, we just, we are just doing a POC with a golden silver. later we do intend to add more assets, as well as asset classes on the platform. Currently, when you do buy gold and silver on the platform, you can, first of all, you can choose, you know, which, what you want to sort of keep that gold and silver in. So we have w we have collaboration with Brinks waltz. Those are the highest. Standard or an industry level, security that they can provide for precious metals. We have a collaboration with brings walls in various countries. So you choose which country you want to, sort of park you're golden. That kind of gives you an economic advantage because gold and silver are not sold at the same price, you know, in different countries. So in India itself, gold is sold as like a premium of 25 to 30%. so, you know, you choose where you park your money and then, you know, that. Transaction kind of happens in real-time because we have gold already parked there and that just gets assigned to you. And you can actually check that these transactions are happening in two ways. So a, because we are recording this on blockchain, you can actually check, you know, it's there it's available on the public address. what is, you know, that these transactions have actually happened? obviously these are pseudonymous transactions, so, you know, not. Everybody will know what transaction you've done unless they knew your details. And the second way in which you can make sure that you know, we are doing this in an authentic manner is we have actually gotten in, There is, but there is Marsh, which is a $30 billion company, which has, which is auditing all our assets as a company. And we also have a third-party auditor for local countries. So you can actually go on the dashboard and access your audit report. So that will give you the details of the kind of holdings that you are holding. and, you know, we are holding them for you under bailment. And it'll also give details of the purity of the goal, the cost at which you had bought and, where exactly is it stored?
Eric Dickmann: 9:58
It sounds really fascinating and a unique concept for sure. And I hope that our listeners will definitely go check out the website to learn more. Now, obviously this is marketing focused and you've built several ventures now from scratch. Talk about this whole idea of zero budget marketing. How do you create the kind of awareness that you need for a platform like this to be successful on a shoestring marketing budget?
Tarusha Mittal: 10:25
Right. So, Oh, you know, I just had to sort of the, you know, learn the ways to do zero balance marketing because we were bootstrapping for a long time. And when you, you know, you are bootstrapping, then, you know, you need the money for other things as a, you know, you don't really have a huge marketing budget. So we had to devise all of these techniques and we had to go through all of these case studies of other, companies and startups that, you know, they had to improvise. For example, I just, you know, talk about, how. Gmail became really popular because they created a sense of FOMO right there. It was by invite only initially. So that is something that, you know, a lot of startups even now, implement, even we have an invite-only platform we've done it, not just to create a form of, but also because you know, it's a FinTech platform and we don't want it to break by, you know if there are. Too many people who are joining and if there is a certain search, but primarily it was because, you know, because of to create formal, that, you know, we could keep it invite-only. So other than that, we have a device, other techniques we run approximately four to five growth hacks. Four-month and we measure, you know, we kind of have a sheet where we have the growth act, mentioned the steps and the tools that will go into it. And then the kind of expected results that are there. And then we have analytics over it. So it'll depend on what kind of a platform or product that you have, but there are several kinds of growth acts that you can implement, which you can do as you shared set on a know. Shoestring budget for marketing. You can have a kickass reference program. You can collaborate with influencers. You can create really engaging content that becomes viral. you know you can, as I said, you can create FOMO. It's about basically, you know, associating, you know, giving users a feel-good factor when they use your product, giving them a story that they can relate to something that will Evoke emotions in them. and you know, obviously, you need to sort of find those people and trigger them to come to your product and, you know, be added to the funding. Ultimately.
Eric Dickmann: 12:25
We're in this period right now where the stock market is rallying. And I think it's caught a lot of people by surprise because given. Here in the States, we've got people unemployed. there's obviously a lot of stimulus. That's being pumped into the economy to prop things up. But from the news reports, it also appears that there are a lot of first-time investors that are getting into the market. And one of the platforms that have been mentioned quite a few times is this Robin hood platform where millennials are getting into the market there, they're almost using the market as a form of gambling. Because they can't bet on other sports, but cryptocurrency is one of the things that they enjoy playing with. And they were talking about the fact that one of the ways that they've gotten new investors engaged is gamification in doing things within the application to make it very compelling, talk a little bit about, yeah. Talk about how do you think about all that with your target market and how you employ those kinds of techniques within the tool?
Tarusha Mittal: 13:28
Yeah, a hundred percent. So gamification is a huge part of what we do. So even with the cryptocurrency exchange, even with this, you know, with this current platform, we have implemented, a big, great, you know, gamification frameworks. So first I'll talk about the crypto exchange. What we had done was that you know, Every action, kind of, had a badge associated with it. So, you know, if a person performed an X action, then they could claim that particular badge. And, that was the way via which we, you know, kept the user engagement, like on the heavier side. Because people wanted to claim those badges like, and, you know, we even had badges for very, very basic things. Like if somebody, if, if a content creator wanted to write about us or, or perhaps has reviewed us or be on their channel or their blog post, then they could claim a certain badge. And they, that also enable them to. get some, some crypto tokens as well. It wasn't just, you know, just, just a badge on your profile, but, you know, you could actually earn some crypto tokens as well. So that was like a huge framework that we had. We had, I think over 30 badges, on the platform and, you know, users kept coming back to actually. Keep claiming those badges because some of them were recurring, and depending on decorating actions. So now for oil pocket, we've done something similar. So, you know, if you are sort of transacting on all the pockets, you earn a certain, gems on the platform. And then, you know, you can redeem those gems, either as gold or silver on OroPocket itself. Or, you know, you can get like an Amazon gift card or, or, or a gift card from any other eCommerce website that we have collaborated with. Primarily our users go for Amazon, or you can just sort of, you know, the equal amount would be transferred, into your favorite charity. So we have actually collaborated with, two charities here. So one is an animal rescue. A shelter and another one deals with the environment preservation and also, you know, you can choose which charity to sort of donating those extra points too. And, that is something that, you know, we have, we also have implemented a similar badge, you know, system and a framework, on our pocket as well. So for every action, like a reckoning action, or if you've crossed a certain threshold of investment, Then you, you are, you know, you, you, you can earn a badge and you can get some of these gems as well. So we've got both of these parts together for our, okay.
Eric Dickmann: 15:55
Marketing is the engine that drives demand, but too often it takes a back seat to other priorities. Awareness fails to materialize demand drops in sales falter. Don't wait until it's too late to build your brand awareness and demand generation programs. If your company is struggling with their marketing strategy, we want to help let's schedule a call to talk about your unique situation and what options might be available to get your marketing program back on track. To learn more text C M O to (407) 374-3670 that's C M O to four zero seven three seven four three six seven zero. And we'll reply with further details. We hope to hear from you soon.
So as you've grown the company and you've worked on building awareness for what you're offering, where are you finding the greatest success at finding new users? Obviously, when you're doing marketing on a shoestring budget and you're not spending a lot of money on ads, you've got to push content. You've got to get yourself out there in a way that allows you to be found. What are you finding is successful in terms of drawing traffic to your website or to the application?
Tarusha Mittal: 17:13
Okay, so we are trying to close on there's a lot of partners. Ships and partners too. It's not just with, you know, other brands that kind of unlocks, you know, a potentially larger user base, for us. But that is one angle of the partnerships that, you know, with collaboration that we are doing, we are also going to partner up with, you know, the. With micro-influencers who have, they have a following of less than 5,000, but they have a larger, trust factor. So we are collaborating with micro-influencers, trying to close on, on some B2B partnerships. And the other thing that we are doing, which is getting us. Quite a lot of traction is by collaborating with, you know, group, doing exclusive launches basically because we are an invite-only platform. So we are doing exclusive launches on say, on certain Facebook groups on certain LinkedIn groups. And that is getting us a lot of traction because it's not just an exclusive launch, we'd Dwin AMA, but the founders so that everybody can, you don't have a face associated with the brand and ask us questions in real-time. So that kind of really makes the platform, gain traction. So these are the three ways that, you know, are at the top of my mind. And I think these are the ways that we are, using a lot to, add onto the traction.
Eric Dickmann: 18:25
Often, I think people think of influencers as celebrities who are pushing very consumer-focused brands, but there really is a place for people who have expertise in a marketplace or who have a large following in a marketplace to help promote brands especially something like this, which is new, which is interesting and is very targeted. This is a great opportunity to really engage with people who are already heavily involved in that kind of a marketplace with that kind of a product set, to be able to say, Hey, there's this new product out there. Hey, there's this new solution. People who are following me, you should take a look at it. I think that's a great strategy.
Tarusha Mittal: 19:06
Absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, I'll give you a very quick example of what we did was that you know, we were talking to Margaret micro-influencers, what are you going to be? Kind of got two strategies together. We got micro-influencers and a content strategy together. So we sent out a simple, you know, we, email or, or perhaps a message on, on any social media network that people were on. These were experts and they were micro-influencers in this particular space, in the FinTech space. And we asked them a simple question. It was about something that was relevant and in the news those days. And we asked them to give us a very short answer. like one or two-line answer. And what we did was we compiled all of those answers together and we, you know, created a blog post, which, we further, we, we push it out on our blog and, you know, we, we asked the people who had contributed to that particular article to sort of push it out on their social media platforms, thereby creating some, you know, a ripple effect of sorts. So we, we kind of brought those two strategies together and then we pushed out. So there are just one of the examples of kinds of strategies that we, sort of experiment with on a month on month basis and see what we are getting best results with
Eric Dickmann: 20:11
Because they need content to push to their fan base, their user base, and you need content. It's a win-win for both. Talk to me a little bit about some of the tools that you use within your marketing effort that you find especially effective. I do notice that you have Facebook Messenger enabled on your website so that people can chat directly with you. What are some other things that you use behind the scenes to facilitate your zero budget marketing?
Tarusha Mittal: 20:36
you know, for our marketing efforts, I think for every particular strategy that we put in place, we have, different tools that we use for identifying, you know, micro-influencers, we use, you know, various tools that are there have used plants. I think that is like the most popular one, to get the engagement, for every influencer that we perhaps are going to be. Onboarding. so that is primarily for Instagram inferences that we use and other tools they range from, you know, just using Zapier or, for just automation. At times we use for email marketing, we use a lot of, MailerLite and drip. for, you know, even automation and trigger-based emails that we send out, apart from that, you know, you kind of put me on a spot now, all of a sudden the countrymen, but yeah, we basically use like quite a few it's, it's very different for every, you know, every strategy that we put in place. So for this, for example, as I said, for this particular content strategy, we just. To the very basic reach out on social media. And we sent out emails. So obviously to, you know, sort of getting, the email IDs are, there are, there are ways to sort of procuring the email I use from the LinkedIn profile. So you'd use Hunter.IO for that or email find out for that. And then, you know, we reach out to them by email as well as social media. And then we had asked them this particular question, and then once they came back to us, then we don't, we, used Hemingway right. To sort of. Compile it and make sure that, you know, the readability of that article was good. And, we used Canva for, creation of, graphics. And we used a big monkey for, you know, some editing and we use Pixabay for, pictures, that, you know, that, that, that were free in the freedom main, et cetera. And then, you know, we had compiled it and obviously we push it out on medium as well as on our own blog. So, you know, like for one strategy, all of these tools where you, so if you ask me like specifically, okay, that this is what I want to implement and what tool should I use? I think I would have a more clear idea and I can tell you what tools to use to sort of get that done.
Eric Dickmann: 22:38
Well, I think what's interesting to our audience is that there is an awful lot of marketing that you can do at a very low cost. A lot of these tools offer some form of a free version where there's a limited amount of functionality that's available without having to pay a subscription. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't eventually pay for a subscription. Sometimes the pro features are really beneficial for this toolset, but there are things that you can do, especially to get started. You don't have to spend a lot of money right up front, just to get some basics in place. I'm curious, you talked a little bit about email marketing and one of the things that have come. From this COVID crisis is we've actually seen reports where email open rates are higher, that there's more engagement with email than there has been the past couple of years. And it may be the people's work habits are changing a bit. They're at home. They've got more time to go through emails that are being sent to them. But if you found this as well, have you found your email, open rates, and engagement?
Tarusha Mittal: 23:37
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think we've also seen it. And I would say that it's primarily because people don't because of the log down and people staying at home and their work habits are sort of changing. so they are engaging more with email now. it might also be because they are not in the office and they're at home. So they kind of have to check, you know, that they're being more prompt on there with their inbox, but, we have seen higher engagement with email and that is why, you know, we've actually started a newsletter now. we were kind of a little lax with it. but now we tried to make it into a regular thing and we. not just compile, like our own logs and Tom, Tom, about our own teachers that we try to compile, you know, news, and good blog posts, which are doing well in the industry in which would be relevant to our users. And then we push it out as a newsletter. So, you know, that, that is just a, because we saw a high engagement with emails, now that we know because there is a high engagement, so we, we try to compare it to a newsletter and we can into a regular thing.
Eric Dickmann: 24:34
Have you found success with Facebook messenger and enabling chat functionality? Do you find that people want to engage with you in that way, directly from the website?
Tarusha Mittal: 24:44
Hundred percent. I think, you know, Facebook Messenger was very successful initially we did not have a chat, you know, a bot, on the website when we had launched in, we just had a, just a contact form. And that is, that's kind of, I think, a little dated as an approach. So you should definitely have a bot. And, you know, there are lots of tools that, you know, you can use to have like a Facebook messenger bot or WhatsApp or, or, or even a telegram bot. So many chat is a very good tool. if, to, you know, create, like bots without coding. I think that is something very imperative. We actually found so much success with this particular bot that we are creating, you know, a WhatsApp bot is when, because that is something that our users have, requested now that you don't, we are kind of live on all on iOS as well as Android. So our users want WhatsApp support as well.
Eric Dickmann: 25:32
It's very interesting. These bots continue to get more advanced and offer more capability. And I think the more that they turn into a very helpful resource, the more people will embrace them. I also, from my experience, I've seen different demographics react to them differently too. Sometimes in the B to B space where you've got solutions that people are selling that are bigger and more complicated bots aren't as effective because they feel their questions are too complicated. But in other spaces where you've got very simple questions and the engagement. A base that you're dealing with, likes to use that form of communication. They're hugely effective.
Tarusha Mittal: 26:08
I think that you know, you would have to obviously do what you will train it to do. So if you are a, you know, in the B to C space, I think a lot of questions that come from users, they are potentially very similar. And, you know, you can easily automate it so that, you know, your, the user doesn't, you don't just drop off like you do. When we initially we had, heat maps installed and you were trying to figure out where exactly is the user dropping off, while they are on the website. And we realized that you know, I, when we did some survey and we, you know, we got on the call with few of those users, they actually said that, you know, they were. They had a few questions and because it's an invite on the platform, the, they, the, you know, the most that they could do was a request for an invite, but they, they did not have a quick answer for those particular questions, even though we do have, like a, a dedicated page for, FAQ, but even users at times just don't notice it, I think. And just having that particular bot they automatically sort of answering their questions was a lot of help.
Eric Dickmann: 27:11
That's a great insight. And I think it's something that all of our listeners should investigate at least for their own websites to see if a bot makes sense to have on there, to answer some of those simple questions. I know that you are also a podcaster yourself. Talk to me a little bit about what you do in the realm of podcasting.
Tarusha Mittal: 27:30
Okay. So I'm very, very new. I have recently started a podcast it's called living on blockchain. So basically it's, it's about sort of. moving away from the jargon that, you know, comes with blockchain technology because it's a very new technology it's in its infancy. A lot of people talk with a lot of, you know, jargon and words that usually, people do not understand laypeople will not get it. And it doesn't make sense. you know, our technology cannot really solve any real problems if you're not making a connection with the users. So, it is to dispel all of that. And I kind of, I try to make it a point to interview, You know, females who are in this space because as a female entrepreneurial myself and deep tech, I realized that it's quite a sausage Fest out there when I attend events, et cetera, and in blockchain even more so because it's such a niche. so I'm trying to highlight their contribution more. Obviously I do interview, you know, men as well, but I try to keep the ratio a little more too as the female side.
Eric Dickmann: 28:26
That's great. What was the name of the podcast again?
Tarusha Mittal: 28:29
Living on Blockchain,
Eric Dickmann: 28:30
Living on Blockchain. Definitely have to check that out. I wanted to give you an opportunity just to tell our listeners how they could get in touch with you, how they could learn more about OraPocket.
Tarusha Mittal: 28:43
Absolutely. So, you know, I'm really active on Twitter. My handle is TarshaM. So, you know, you can reach out to me there, or you can reach out to me over any of the social media platforms, quite active, on OraPocket. You know you can, I have actually for your listeners, I've crafted an offer. So your listeners can automatically sign up on the platform and, get a, you know, an mg of gold, one mg of gold for free as a bonus. when they sign up using the exclusive link that I have provided to you. so, you know, they wouldn't actually have to wait in the queue and, enjoy a hundred percent acid banking, right away.
Eric Dickmann: 29:19
That's amazing. You know, often on this podcast, I think our guests deliver nuggets of gold, but you are the first guest that actually is delivering real gold. So that is something that our listeners can certainly take advantage of. Theresa. This has been a great conversation. I've really enjoyed hearing about your story hearing about OraPocket. It's truly a unique business venture. I wish you all the success in this next year and thank you so much for being a guest here on The Virtual CMO.
Tarusha Mittal: 29:54
It's been my pleasure, Eric. It was such a great conversation. Thank you so much for calling me. Thank you again.
Eric Dickmann: 29:57
That wraps up another episode of The Virtual CMO podcast. As a reminder, if you'd like to learn more about Virtual CMO, strategic marketing consulting services, or anything else discussed here today, please visit us at fiveechelon.com. There's a link in the show notes. If you'd like to send us comments, feedback, guest inquiries, and your five-star reviews on Apple Podcasts are always appreciated. If you'd like to reach me. I'm EDickmann. That's E D I C K M A N N on Twitter. If you'd like to connect on LinkedIn, please let me know. You heard about me through The Virtual CMO podcast. I look forward to talking with you again next week and sharing some new marketing insights on The Virtual CMO.